Giving the Hand Back? 5th APT Shirt Promo

[LloydFontillas]

I have given away 8 Cool APT Shirts so far and this will be the 9th one right before I kick off APT Philippines 2012 at Resorts World Manila, April 19-25! Here is a question that everyone should be able to give an opinion on.

Scenario:

Tournament is down to 5 players and you are in the BIG BLIND and everyone pretty much limps in/ just calls. Being that no one raised your big blind, for some reason you pass your hand forward toward the center of the table, thinking that someone raised or you forgot that you had the big blind because of the huge pot that you are still stacking up from the previous hand!

Now the Dealer pushes you back your hand and tells you, "sorry but, no one raised, option".

Do you think the dealer should push the hand back to the you or not? Why?

[Nigel]

Folding in turn when facing a check is a binding fold. The dealer should not push his cards back, he should simply muck and continue to the flop.

Also, there is no further action behind him as he is last to act on that round of betting so there is no need for a warning or penalty either. He could have seen a free flop with any two cards and should have been paying more attention but it is not up to the dealer to give him that opportunity.
 

[FattyToro]

What's with all these players that just don't pay attention!?

I think dealer has to use their judgment here.  I'm being nitpicky here, but pushing your cards forward towards the center of the table... HOW FAR into the center did the player push their cards in?  Past the betting line?  Just in front of their hands?  Did the BB release the cards?  I assume all of these answers are suggestive that the BB made it really clear they were mucking.  If it wasn't clear, then the dealer should be confirming the action to the player as an indirect way to confirm the BB's action.  That's the 'polite' way to give the BB a chance if it really wasn't clear cut what their intention was.  By doing this though, the dealer risks 'assisting' the BB in a possible angle shoot to look weak by intending to fold (but would the BB really risk folding a strong hand if the dealer mucks their hand!?)

Ok, done with the verbal diarrhea.  It's a clear case of Rule 46. Non-standard folds.  Hand is dead and BB is liable to a penalty from TD.  The dealer should not have push the hand back. 

[milman17]

The dealer should be punched in the head........the player pushed his cards forward, that is a fold, plan and simple, the dealer job is to deal not to advise the player that nobody raised, take the cards and put them in the muck......next hand, and by the way, can we have a new dealer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jhed03]

45:   Non-Standard Folds
 
Anytime before the end of the last betting round of a hand, folding in turn when facing a check or folding out of turn are both binding folds and may be subject to penalty.

The BB hand is dead, but should not be penalized since he folded on his turn. The dealer should not return BB hand, poker is a game of alert and every player should be attentive on the action facing him (raise, bets) It is the player's responsibility to know if there is a raise on his BB regardless if he is still stacking his chips, throwing his hand in the center of the table is a clear muck from the BB.

[ckailian]

Folding before dealer's saying option will not be penalized in my opinion. Which after dealer has said option, folding would be considered muck.

I'd say the dealer is the maker of the game. He controls the flow.

[LloydFontillas]

Great answers everyone. But, for this Cool APT t-shirt question I am going to give it to "jhed03". He did the digging by posting up the ruling along with his explanation.

I asked this question because back in my days of dealing, we were taught to give the BB the hand back. Simply as customer courtesy, everyone was treated the same and everyone excepted it. (this was before tournament poker got big and the TDA rules were created) It rarely happened to me because as a dealer I always announced to the players to post up the SB & BB as I was moving the button and before the shuffle. I also said "option" pretty loud when it came to the BB.

Now that the rules are written. I will kill that hand, not warn the player. But, explain how that player needs to pay more attention.


Thanks guys for all the support and this will be my last question before I kick off APT Philippines 2012! For sure afterwards, I will have some fresh scenarios of ruling that I will have to deal with in this event! jhed03 please post up your shirt size here http://www.pokerportal.asia/poker-forum/index.php?topic=961.0 and you will be able to pick up your t-shirt any time during APT Philippines 2012 at Resorts World Manila April 19-25! Congratulations!