I Would Call!

[LloydFontillas]

I just got a phone call from a good friend about a ruling that was made in a tournament he was playing. Let's see if you know the right ruling.


Situation, NLH Tournament:

Heavy betting on all streets and pot gets heads up going into the river.

Player A in seat 8 , 1st to act moves all-in! Putting a lot of pressure on Player B, sitting in seat 2, being if he makes the call, it's for his tournament life!

Player B now picks up his hand, exposing it to the player in seat 1 and 3. On top of it, the player in the 6 seat (who happens to be his friend) gets up, takes a peek the Player B's hand, sits back down and says, "if I was you, I would call"!!

I am going to stop it right here..... Do you think Player B still gets to play his hand? Do you think someone at the table should take a penalty?

[jasonpinas]

Card of player B must be automatically mucked. I think its in the rule that you cannot show your card to anyone until you're in action and other players who have seen your cards might comment and actually influence your decision making.

[LloydFontillas]

Card of player B must be automatically mucked. I think its in the rule that you cannot show your card to anyone until you're in action and other players who have seen your cards might comment and actually influence your decision making.

Respected answer. But, I guarantee you that in almost every tournament you play a player will pick up their hand and show it to other players that don't have a hand, while making a decision. They might even flat out put it on the table and show them just to get a read off another player.

Now I am not saying that it's right, nor should it be allowed. Honestly, your answer is wrong and I will tell you what the answer is as others view this post.

[jasonpinas]

One round penalty whether he calls or mucks his hand?

[LloydFontillas]

One round penalty whether he calls or mucks his hand?

If he tabled it you are right. It will be a 1 round penalty. But, to give you a clue. This situation was the dealer's fault and the floorman's fault (that is if 1 is standing there) for simply not stopping him from flashing his hand around in the 1st place.

Again, I will reveal more about the answer as more view this post. Goodnight Hahahaha!!

[jasonpinas]

One round penalty whether he calls or mucks his hand?

If he tabled it you are right. It will be a 1 round penalty. But, to give you a clue. This situation was the dealer's fault and the floorman's fault (that is if 1 is standing there) for simply not stopping him from flashing his hand around in the 1st place.

Again, I will reveal more about the answer as more view this post. Goodnight Hahahaha!!

Goodnight Mr. MIDT 4th place finisher! 

[milman17]

This is simple....player B exposed his hand, his cards are dead, don't matter who he showed them to....he also gets a one round penalty.   TDs start enforcing rules the way the game is suppose to be played all these stupid people playing will stop this crap....stop punishing the players who play correctly and punish the players who do stupid crap.  He showed his cards to get a reaction or even advise from players not in the hand, you can't do that and it don't matter how much money is in the pot, that is just more reason to play by the rules and be careful what you do at the table!  Another T-shirt for me?  You owe me three now, correct?

[ryan r d termenetor]

I agree it was the dealer's fault that did not control the table.

[milman17]

How can it be the dealers fault?  Explain to me how a dealer can prevent a player from showing his cards to other players?  This is insane!  Show your cards without getting your money in, it is a fold!  Let's play poker instead of bs!  If someone is to lazy to read the rules or to stupid to understand them blaming the dealer is wrong!  The dealer is there to deal not mentor and teach players what to do or not to do!  These people are ruining the game of poker, keep letting them do it instead of applying the rules or blaming the dealer, simply ridiculous!

[LloydFontillas]

Alright, here you go guys. Unfortunately, the hand is not dead based on the rules. I say unfortunately because I believe there are some scenarios where a player should get there hand killed. (best example, he shows it and than asks for advise, now if this happened I would go to rule #1 and kill this guys hand)

What happened in this scenario, could have easily controlled by the dealer. All the dealer had to  say was, "1 player to a hand"! If the dealer would have said that, 100% the player would have put their hand back, face down and no penalty would even have to be issued.

Going further into the scenario, where the player got so far with keeping the hand exposed, to where is allowed seat # 6 to get up and take a peek at his hand. The situation was obviously not handled correctly by the dealer. So, as a TD, I will now have to issue a penalty to the player and treat it as the player, actually tabling the hand (the penalty will be a 1 round penalty straight away). On top of it, seat 6 needs to be schooled on proper etiquette and to protect the integrity of the game. Since player in seat 6, verbally said something with the cards in play, that might/could influence the action and the outcome of the hand. Is good enough reason for me to also give him a 1 round penalty as well!

It's not so much being to hard on the players. But, how would you feel if you were in the scenario where you got called because of someone said to your opponent "hey you should call" and go broke because of it!

Penalties, when given correctly, teaches players to play correctly.

Here is a guarantee, if a player is given a penalty, even though it's only for 1 hand (which is what I do when players, simply act out of turn). 99% of the time that same player will never do it again. 1% will be because that player is simply unteachable! Hahaha!

Thanks guys for the views and comments! More to come!

[milman17]

I round penalty for the dealer also?  Everyone knows its one hand per player, they just looking for an angle,   Plain and simple, not dealers fault!

[LloydFontillas]

I round penalty for the dealer also?  Everyone knows its one hand per player, they just looking for an angle,   Plain and simple, not dealers fault!

I am not saying that it's the dealers fault. But, just like with any ruling. The dealer it the TDs eyes and also has a job to enforce or should I say protect the game by warning the players what not to do or simply call for a floor when they see someone out of line.

Again, if the dealer simply would have said. "1 player to a hand" or "you need to keep your hand down". Than it would have never made it to where seat number 6 could have gotten up, took a peek at Player B's hand and say "I would call"!

Hope this is pretty clear now milman. Thank again!

[edwinhui]

I will agree with your ruling, although this goes back to my line where I believe that anybody who intentionally flashes a hand, with action pending, even if the action is heads up and he closes, should be automatically ruled a dead hand.

This would eliminate all the angling that occurs with exposing your hand.  I understand the viewpoint where you may think its good for the game for heads up to be able to flash and get reactions from the players, but Id rather protect the integrity of the game, versus trying to make a heads up match more interesting.

This would also apply to the annoying people who like to fold their hand, and before folding, have to hold it up and show the player on the right their hole cards ... "OMG I'm folding this!" idiots.  Penalize them!  They slow up the game, and give unfair advantage to others at the tables (those who saw it versus those that did not).

If it's a clear accident, and a first offense, a warning is fine.  But I think you should kill the hands of people who like to table the cards and say .. SHOULD I CALL?  If you open your hand up, thats a call.  Make it simple and ruthless and they will fall in line.

[LloydFontillas]

I will agree with your ruling, although this goes back to my line where I believe that anybody who intentionally flashes a hand, with action pending, even if the action is heads up and he closes, should be automatically ruled a dead hand.

This would eliminate all the angling that occurs with exposing your hand.  I understand the viewpoint where you may think its good for the game for heads up to be able to flash and get reactions from the players, but Id rather protect the integrity of the game, versus trying to make a heads up match more interesting.

This would also apply to the annoying people who like to fold their hand, and before folding, have to hold it up and show the player on the right their hole cards ... "OMG I'm folding this!" idiots.  Penalize them!  They slow up the game, and give unfair advantage to others at the tables (those who saw it versus those that did not).

If it's a clear accident, and a first offense, a warning is fine.  But I think you should kill the hands of people who like to table the cards and say .. SHOULD I CALL?  If you open your hand up, thats a call.  Make it simple and ruthless and they will fall in line.

If this is the case. You would hate playing with me because I like to advertise a lot when laying down big hands. So, I will pick up my hand here and there before mucking (now I know that you hate it. I will do it more often just to put you on tilt) Hahahaha! Although, I would never do it in a multiway pot with action pending.

[edwinhui]

I don't go on tilt from stuff like that.

But as a TD, you should be trying to expedite play, not allow this kind of behavior that slows down the game and is unnecessary, and subject to all sorts of angling that exists today.

[LloydFontillas]

I don't go on tilt from stuff like that.

But as a TD, you should be trying to expedite play, not allow this kind of behavior that slows down the game and is unnecessary, and subject to all sorts of angling that exists today.

Wow! So, serious! I am all for speeding up the game. But, I am also not in favor of you saying to kill an exposed hand when in fact, I teach all my dealers, let alone the fact I was taught to never kill a hand that has been tabled. Cards speak is like the oldest rule in the book. That is why, in the modern world of tournament poker, penalties were created. So in most instances, I would give a penalty for a player exposing the hand with action pending. But, almost never kill a hand when tabled. Hope this is fair enough for you.