The first angle shoot is by Roland De Wolfe.
It's obvious that he believes he cannot win on the river by checking, so he ends up bluffing with the best hand.
Once he is called, you can see his face drop, and he basically flips open the King, and says, I have King high, I have King high. He doesn't believe he can win. When Tobias does not show immediately, he seems to be uncertain whether he is beat. Instead of just mucking his cards, he's trying to encourage Tobias Reinkemeier to show his cards out of turn first, so that he can take the advantage and muck to prevent the table from seeing his weak kicker/hand selection if he is beat, or turning face up his cards if by chance Tobias does have a weaker hand.
Tobias then does a little angle shooting of his own, although it is quite minor. He basically tells Roland he has a good hand, and that he should show or muck. This is following the proscribed rules, so I don't think this is out of line. He does a little bit of dropping his cards on the table and preparing to muck, ie, that he is sure that Roland will muck. After some hesitation, Roland clearly slides a portion of his two cards under the muck, face down. The dealer then opens Roland's cards and he is shown to have the winning hand.
Roland now does a huge angle shoot, by insisting that his cards are not in the muck. This is probably the worst offence, blatant lying, to win a pot where he has folded. It is clear that Roland has no interest in the pot, until he realizes that he could have actually won, and begins to protest against his own stupidity.
The analysis here.
Roland, having bet on the river, must open his cards first if he wants to claim the pot, and he must table both cards face up.
Tobias does not have to show if he does not want to. By calling, he has essentially paid to see Roland's cards, and can wait until Roland tables both cards face up on the table, or mucks his hand.
From the replay, it's clear that Roland has slid a portion of both cards face down under the muck. His hand is dead.
In the same way in which a dealer cannot kill your hand if you table both cards face up, the dealer cannot save your hand by turning your face down mucked cards face up. A dealer is there to facilitate the game, not to save or kill the players in specific hands. The dealer seems to be in the wrong here, unless there is a house rule that insists that the cards are turned up to prevent collusion or chip dumping. However, in those cases, the general rule would still be that the mucked hand is dead, and is turned up only for audit purposes.
A TD coming to the table belatedly would see both hands face up and would require more information for a ruling. A question he may ask is, did the player ever turn both cards face up. No. A second question would be, did the player put any portion of his cards face down into the muck. Yes. The hand is dead, and the dealer cannot save you here.
I have to admit, I am a bit biased here as well, because as a player, I ABSOLUTELY HATE those players who make stupid bets on the river, only for me to call. They then flip open one card and ask, Ace high .. is it good .. show your hand. Ummm .. NO. I paid to see your hand, and I want to see both cards. If you want to see my cards, show me yours. Why should I show you both my cards so you know exactly how I play 85o, when I will have no idea if you had KK, AKs, K2o? This is angle shooting imho, and can be used against you in later hands with you having less information on how your opponent plays specific hands. It's not just the outcome, its how you play a specific hand, and thats why Roland does not want to show his second card. He's trying to get an advantage for nothing.
Personally, I would award penalties to people who bet the river and then try to only show one card when called. You are holding up the game buddy! Stop wasting our time and show or muck!
You may ask if Tobias is being ethical. There is something to be said for honesty, but poker is poker, and lying and deception is part of the game. At no time did he tell Roland to muck because he has a better hand, he is only saying he has a good hand, which is fair for anybody to say at any time. He is only telling Roland to follow the rules, which is you show first to claim the pot, or you muck. Personally, I would do the same here whether or not I would win or lose. i want you to table both your cards, and then I will muck or show as per the betting order.
I think that is fair, and better for the game in general. Let's not just look at one hand to determine, but think of how many hands where your opponent must show first, and then he acts like an idiot and shows one card and flips it back and forth and waits for you to show both cards. Just open it! Same as with All Ins during a tournament, you have to show your hand anyways, so when its clear you are both all in, just flip your cards open. Don't be an idiot and say .. what do you have .. do you have KK? do you have Ak, what do you have? Can you beat JJ? All the while keeping your cards face down.
DON'T BE AN ASS AND WASTE EVERYBODY'S TIME.
Anybody who have ever played with me with know that regardless of what I have, if I'm called I will flip my cards open immediately. it could be AA or 72, but you are called, just open it, its not like keeping them face down will magically change your cards into winners.
Lloyd, you were correct that this question will fire me up, because this is in my top 3 peeves at the poker table. LOL.
Topic: Where's the Angle? (Read 476 times)